Wednesday, October 12, 2011

Pillar Envy - Part II

I think the two new pillars are going to be Rosedale and Kruse, and I am happy to see them contributing on their own blogs and facebook pages.

The main thing I like about Kruse is that he has an explanation of what is going on with people like me.

Now, according to people like Harris, people like me get fat cause we just can't control eating all that junk.  Apparently before he wrote such comments, he did not check my anecdote first, here.  Seems that right around menopause, I must have started getting lazy and eating tons of junk food that I forgot to include in my food logs because of the early-onset Alzheimer's, I guess.  Lazy, undisciplined slob who somehow managed to grow her own business, make her own office furniture and spin her own yarn to weave her own clothing, actually program in Mark-IV, but once she stops having periods, gosh, she's just never gonna  face the facts and quit drinking all that soda and eating all those fast-food fries. (Oh wait, I wasn't eating that stuff....)

According to people like Guyenet, people like me get fat cause my food is too tasty.  The tastiness of my food pretty much coincided with menopause, so isn't it amazing that as soon as I crossed over to the other side, all the farmers changed to genetically-modified food designed on purpose to make me fat and want more of it.  All the sudden, no matter what I ate, I wanted to eat more of it.  The fruit got sweeter, and the wheat got shorter.  Apparently before he wrote such comments, Guyenet did not check my anecdote, here.  (For those reading this far, but too lazy to click on the second link, the short story is that for the past several years, I ate clean and local, and grew much of my own food, no weight loss!  And don't blame Monsanto's sugar beet fiasco either.  I breed and grow all my own beet seeds so they're probably still "clean" since all that pollen would have to blow pretty far from Oregon to here.)

Now, here's why I can't fully embrace either Rosedale or Kruse yet.  I blogged about what happened to me, and how I lost a ton of weight, I didn't really get into what happened after that.  Last fall/winter I decided to try a low carb diet.  After a few days on the diet, I went off for a weekend camping trip full of "healthy" mostly-vegetarian food.  There was stress, lack of sleep, carby food, etc.  By the end of the weekend I had lost the magic.  My libido crashed, I started getting sore from my daily walk and couldn't recover, then I slipped and slid down a hill and stopped walking until I recovered.  My cravings became more intense.  Every pound lost was a battle.  I eventually lost over 10 more pounds eating both lower and higher carb, but it took several months to do it.  After that, I added back some carbs, immediately gained back a few more pounds, and have been sitting pretty much the same place ever since.  I never got back to that place I was before.  I tried all the low carb plans, then higher carb, then Schwarzbein, Protein power, Rosedale, Primal, Paleo, the leptin reset (16 weeks and counting for the reset, and the plateau is as flat as ever.)  As I switched from plan to plan, I did notice when I was descending into slugsville, and noticed which programs resulted in the gain in lots of flab, despite what the scale said.  It really isn't true that people get fat because they are lazy and eat too much.  I can tell when changes are a-comin', when all I want to do is eat and lie around.  It is surely not due to the type of food that is being overeaten!  Guyenet is dead wrong, dangerously wrong!

When my doctor prescribed trazodone, the weight poured off, my energy and libido soared, exercise was easy.  Then when I made a few changes, all the success evaporated.  Kruse would have an explanation for some of this:  lipoprotein lipase doesn't work the same for post-menopausal women, or it's the hypocretin neurons, to be solved by nipple massage.....or maybe it was the coming of winter and a lack of vitamin D, or pregnenolone steal....  I'm not buying all what he says because I know there must be a way to do this without spending thousands of dollars every quarter on testing and supplements.  I'm not buying all of Rosedale either.  See, I lost all that weight on a higher-carb diet than what he recommends.  I know weight loss works on a higher-carb diet because I did it!  I lost 30 pounds very rapidly eating 100-150 grams carb and now can't lose even a few pounds on 20 grams carb.  I think Kruse needs to address the issues that many women posting on Mark's Daily Apple with the adrenals and depression.  Maybe there is still some tinkering that needs to happen to his plan.

But I applaud both these guys building their plans to include anecdotes such as mine.  I really think they both really honor real people's experiences and know that there is a whole lot more to weight than gluttony and sloth.


  1. Kruse is cllear on this. Its likely a hormone issue and there is no way to prove it or disprove it without testing. Most post menopausal women have a tremendous change in ratio of estrogen to progesterone and lowered testosterone but the biggest drop maybe in the median eminence release controler prolactin. Nipple message can help it if you still make it but if your giant pharmacy in your brain does not.......well then you might see a person like you.

    Dr. K

  2. Exceptionally Brash I went paleo/Primal back in Nov 2010 - 7mths after I gave birth to my 2nd child. Initially the baby weight fell off, ending at my pre-pregnancy weight;however I still was overweight. I hit a plateau in Feb/March, and stayed at that weight no change, except slight fluctuation. In June I started Dr Kruse's Leptin Reset and was on it for 12 weeks w/o any change! Then I got some testing done (I finally headed Dr K's testing mantra), I leveraged my Kaiser and VA Docs to run the tests I needed - and figured out that I was still Leptin Resistant, due to cortisol and HPA issues. Once I had my test results, I started back on Day 0 - dialed in and focused on fixing my cortisol issues...and suddenly 3 weeks in I had lost 10lbs! Testing is critical, while I can't afford to test every quarter like Dr K would like...I'll test what I can and make tweaks... I'm living proof that you can test w/o spending thousands of dollars on tests. Because I can't afford to test and verify every quarter - it will just take me longer to get to optimal... it took me 10yrs to get to the point where I went primal/paleo last Nov, If It takes me 10yrs to get to optimal, with semi-annual testing I'm ok w/that... I'm in this for the long haul... things are starting to click... could they have fallen into place faster/earlier in my Leptin Experiment if I tested? based upon my experience I know this is true. Testing has value, what that value is to each of us is different, for me that value is a positive change forward, which includes weight loss, increased strength, increased sex drive, positive mood & behavior, all resulting in being a better wife and mom. So I've figured out how I can scrape together the $ to do testing 2x/year at a minimum, and If there's a drastic change - I'll figure out how to test more often... this is my n=1 ymmv

  3. Dr. K, thanx for visiting! It is clear to me that it is a hormonal issue, and not a matter of will or the level of tastiness in my food. I was able to drop the post-menopause weight and blow by my earlier 10-year-old "setpoint" to a new "setpoint" level. I did this without hormone testing or therapy, but with a bit of a pill that cost me less than 10 cents a day.

  4. One of the main reasons I see people rejecting the Rosedale plan is all the supplements he recommends. They think its an expensive scam, figured out by a guy who used to sell supplements. People who think losing weight is a matter of portion control don't understand that there might be another way.
    But for people who read his book carefully, he is mindful of the cost, and does outline which supplements are crucial, which are helpful, and which can be sacrificed if cost is an issue.

  5. The main differences I see between you and Rosedale is that he recommends lower protein, allows mini-meals throughout the day, and he lowers satfat at the beginning. But, it's really not all that low, cause if you are eating meat, you are getting lots more fat than if you are going the low-fat vegetarian diet-yogurt method.
    In fact, Dr. Oz, also has a no-eating-after-dinner rule. You all do.

  6. Could it be that going immediately to 2-3 meals a day could be making it worse for people adrenally? Schwarzbein certainly thinks so. Others would say that the methods both you and Rosedale (and other "ketogenic" advocates) are dangerous and can cause adrenal and other hormonal dysfunction. In my anecdote, it's hard to say, since there are many confounding factors. All I can say for sure is that I was in a sweet spot due to many changes I had made plus trazodone, and now I am not.

  7. I have a doctor pal who wants to introduce some of the weight-loss strategies I have used in her clinic. Certainly the use of [redacted] She works in the public health arena, without concern for how much she makes. She herself does not have access to medical insurance, or her patients. So the ideas of testing, compounding and heavy supplementation are laughable, even though they may be successful. What we need is a way to make successful strategies available to all people, and I don't mean regardless of the cost. There needs to be an easier way for all to do this, without so much of the cost.
    My friend practices in a region not even covered by Kaiser, so for them, there is even less than nothing available.
    We don't need another system where fat people get lectures on portion control and the rich can get someone else to pay for them to get thin.

  8. Gretchen, thanx for visiting! I have been following your story and am a bit envious of your access to VA care. I got Kaiser to test a few things too, but not the most crucial tests. As you know, you can't get them to do anything if there is not a problem, and you can't get them to find a problem if they don't acknowledge the test that might find it.

  9. There is a difference between weight loss and optimal. I focus on optimal and longevity. People can lose weight slow and steady without supplements but most people do not want to wait that long. I recommend supplements but indont sell them. People can decide if they want them or not. I posted them in blog forum as free information so people can decide for themselves what is best for them.

  10. Thanx Dr.K! You have donated more than your share of your time and talents to the "cause" and many have been helped by it.

  11. I'm not sure what to say here, Brash, so I'll just let it roll...

    1st, I think no one can really comment past their experiences, whether practical, theoretical, or both. The latest has proven this so; and so we're all individually very short-sighted, to say the least.

    2nd, I don't think anyone believes the calories in/calories out deal, in and of itself any longer (save for a few retarded commenters, and by retarded, I mean those that have never been overweight/metabolically challenged).

    3rd, Guyenet is onto to something with the food reward, but only in the local domain. It's not a dominating factor at all - but it is there. If you can't drop sugar/candy/cake because it's like crack to YOUR brain - well, that's food reward. Nothing to do with adipostat setpoints, however.

    4th, Dr. Harris is also onto something with his NADs. Each of these substances cause myself and my vast population some very acute problems.

    5th, (maybe I should have used bullets) the bottom line is that for the most metabolically dysfunctional persons, whatever the cause, the solution seems to be the same.

    If you're just a bit overweight and its relatively recent, exercise alone may clear things up.

    If you've never had a problem, anything you do to get closer to lower carb/lower processed food and exercise will present surprising results.

    It's really not that complicated. Menopause, on the other hand, may take some additional looking into, as is the case with DM, and other conditions.

    At least this is my humble yet vast experience.


  12. -Berto, I soooooo disagree with your CICO assessment. People who "believe" in the food reward theory as fairly dominant are still ensconced in the belief. Yes, people might have an extra helping of food if it is tasty, but if their metabolisms are working at peak, they will throw off the extra calories easily. The observation that eating certain foods that light up parts of your brain still doesn't explain what people do with the extra calories. It might be the reason you overeat, but it doesn't have much to do with why you get fat.

  13. One of the reason's I think that Guyenet is pretty much wrong is that a high-food-reward food is one that makes you want to eat more of it. How does it explain that when I eat wheat, I want to eat more of EVERYTHING!, not just wheat? When I eat carbs, I want more of all foods. So, carbs just by themselves are too high in food reward to be considered part of a healthy diet. Most of these folks incorrectly believe that plain potatoes won't start this ball rolling, which is a dead giveaway to me that they really haven't talked to enough fat people to really know what is going on.

  14. And....I am becoming more and more irked by bloggers and commenters who seem to think they know what fat people eat. Lots of comments about people who eat junk and when they go off junk they lose weight. Well, I never ate lots of junk. So many others I know eat carefully and they are still fat. These "researchers" really aren't talking to fat people.
    One of the reasons I think Kruse is closer is that he has a plausible explanation for why some people eat carefully and are still fat. The others don't.

  15. because i have insight of being one of those fat asses for a while. There in lies the difference.

  16. The thing about you doc is not that you were fat, but a fat person would have more of an incentive to figure out what may have been overlooked or discounted by others.

  17. Everyone is chipping away.

    I'm glad we're talking about NADs, Food Reward, and leptin rather than arterycloggingsaturatedfats, calories, and blood types.

  18. hi bjk! Thanks for visiting. Yes, I am glad we aren't talking about blood types anymore. Seems only the "o"s are happy campers.